Interview with Sounds Fake But Okay

Sounds Fake But Okay is a casual, occasionally chaotic podcast by best friends Sarah and Kayla. Each week, this aromantic/asexual girl and demisexual girl discuss relationships, sexuality, queer issues, and society from an asexual and aromantic lens. Started in 2017, Sounds Fake But Okay releases new episodes every Sunday. I had the opportunity to interview Sarah and Kayla, which you can read below.

First of all, how did you come to know each other and what do you think of the chances of both of you discovering you were on the asexual spectrum and creating a podcast revolving around that topic?

We were randomly placed as roommates at the University of Michigan and hit it off incredibly fast — during our first few weeks of college people would constantly ask if we had been friends in high school because we seemed to know each other so well. It’s kind of scary to think about how many little things had to go right in order for us to end up where we are. If I (Kayla) had never met Sarah, I’m not sure that I would have ever discovered my sexuality, and we obviously would have never made the podcast. It makes you want to believe in fate a bit when you think about how low the chances of all of this are.

How did you come up with the title Sounds Fake But Okay?

Once I (Sarah) came out, I found myself asking Kayla a lot of questions about romance, dating, and sex — the sorts of things that people were just expected to intuitively know, but as an aro ace person, I didn’t. When Kayla attempted to give me answers to questions like “what’s the appeal of dick pics?” and “how long is sex supposed to last?”, her responses often sounded fake to me, like they were just things that society was making up and people pretended to understand. Hence, Sounds Fake But Okay was born. 

You two have featured a number of asexual writers and activists on your show before, including Yasmin Benoit, Angela Chen, Gentle Giant Ace, and more. In a way, I feel this helps to illustrate the diversity of the ace community, showing that asexual comes in many shapes and sizes? Was this your intention?

We definitely try to make the show and our guests as diverse as possible. We always say that our experiences are only our own and that they don’t necessarily map onto the community as a whole or speak to every asexual or aromantic person’s experience — we are two cis white women, and it would be harmful to pretend that we understand or represent the experience of all aspecs. Having guests of different sexualities, genders, races, ages, professions, etc. helps us get a broader look at the community.

As an asexual person myself, it often feels like the A is pretty silent in LGBTQIA+. What are your thoughts on the erasure/ gatekeeping of asexual people within the queer community? How do you think the overall queer community can do better?

As aspecs, we’re unfortunately used to getting a lot of criticism or “hate” because of our identities. A lot of the time it comes from straight people or internet trolls. While of course it hurts to see comments from people in those groups, it’s even harder to get hate from fellow queer folks. The queer community is supposed to be about coming together to fight against the norm — it shouldn’t be a contest about who’s the most oppressed or struggles the most. 

We need people of other identities and people who are more “accepted” by the queer community to stand up for us. If we have to keep battling for our place in the community alone, it will take a lot longer.

Both of you occupy different identities within the ace spectrum, with you (Sarah) as a person who identifies as asexual and aromantic and you (Kayla) as a self-described demisexual straight girl. How do you feel your own respective identities play off each other when talking about asexuality?

When we first started the podcast it was supposed to be a straight girl explaining love and sex to an aro ace girl. After I (Kayla) discovered I was demi, the dynamic of the show changed a bit. While I do still explain what dating is like or talk from the perspective of someone who’s had sex, been in love, etc, I also talk from the perspective of an aspec person. I’m in kind of a weird situation where I have one foot in the allo or straight work and one in the aspec or queer world. Since Sarah happens to be an aro ace person who doesn’t date and have sex, I’m kind of able to provide the information she is missing and she is able to do the same for many aro and ace issues.

What are some basic truths for someone who is still new to asexuality you would want people to take away from this interview?

It’s okay if you’re not that happy with your identity or if you’re feeling a bit freaked out. We grow up being told it’s normal to have sex, that everyone does it, everyone wants it, etc. When you eventually find out that this isn’t true or that you just don’t feel the same attraction that others do, it can be a bit of a shock. Take your time and don’t feel bad if you don’t love being ace for a while.

What advice would you have to give for people who are interested in creating and promoting their own podcast?

Don’t start a podcast if you’re just in it to get famous or make money, because the vast majority of podcasts don’t reach that level. Pick a topic that you’re passionate about, that you could see yourself recording hundreds of episodes about. 

We also always tell people to find their niche. Honestly, one of the main reasons our podcast has become successful is because there were no other shows consistently talking about our topic. This won’t be the case for every topic, so you really have to work to make sure you’re talking about a subject in a new or personal way.

And finally, listeners come for your content but they stay for you. How much of yourself you share on any given podcast is your decision (as it should be!), but once you’ve gained your listeners’ trust, they’ll probably be a bit more accepting if you want to go off topic sometimes or experiment with new things.

What’s a question you haven’t been asked yet or wish you were asked more?

I (Kayla) wish we were asked about the joys of asexuality and aromanticism more. Don’t get me wrong, it’s incredibly important to focus on the struggles we face and to help each other through that, but there are some amazing things that come with being aspec as well. As aspec people, we have good experiences and bad experiences and I wish they were shown more equally.

For me (Sarah), it isn’t even a question but just a topic: I wish people talked about aromanticism more. As a person who is both aro and ace, I often feel as though my aromanticism impacts my life more than my aceness does — people don’t necessarily know if you’re not having sex, but they will ask questions if you’re not dating and have no intention to be. However, so much of the focus both inside aspec spaces and out is on asexuality specifically. Part of this is because the vast majority of the population doesn’t have a grasp on the split model of attraction (the idea that romantic attraction, sexual attraction, etc. are not necessarily the same thing), but it’s also just because there seem to be fewer aros than aces. That said, I think more discussion of aromanticism and how the aro lens can help you reframe and prioritize relationships of all types can benefit everyone, and I wish it were more prevalent. 

Finally, what are some LGBTQ+ media (i.e books/ comics/ podcasts/etc.) you would recommend to the readers of Geeks OUT?

Interview With Author Angela Chen

Angela Chen is a journalist and the author of Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex. Her reporting and essays have also appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, The Guardian, Paris Review, and more. I had the opportunity to interview Angela, which you can read below.

Where did the impetus for Ace come from? Has this project been something you’ve been ruminating on for a while?

The short answer is that I wanted to write about asexuality because I am ace and didn’t realize it until I was 24. More specifically, it was frustrating to me that the existence of asexuality and the ace lens felt so hidden—like something that I had to go searching for in order to find, instead of a perspective integrated into the way that we already think about sexuality and relationships. There were other books about asexuality out there, like The Invisible Orientation, but not many. I really wanted to write a reported book that included detailed narratives from people’s lives and, because I am a professional journalist, thought that I’d be able to do that. 

In previous interviews, such as the one with the podcasters of Sounds Fake But Okay, you noted a difference between talking to ace interviewers versus non-ace interviewers. Could you elaborate on this?

Absolutely. When talking to non-ace interviewers, or for publications that primarily have a non-ace audience, I receive a lot of questions asking me to define asexuality or to debunk misconceptions. It’s very ace 101. I really appreciate all the interest from non-aces and think it’s so important that we show that the ace lens can be valuable for everyone, but the questions necessarily are more basic.

When talking to ace interviewers, we can skip all the questions about what asexuality is and isn’t, and talk more about what it means and explore more nuances instead of focusing on definition. I also feel like I can be more critical of the ace community when speaking with ace interviewers. The community isn’t perfect—no community is—but when speaking to allos, I feel more pressure to emphasize the best parts of the community and that people are ace and happy. 

When talking to ace interviewers or an ace audience, I feel more okay talking about what I think the ace community could be doing better, or saying that sometimes I don’t feel great about being ace, and that should be okay too. 

In the book you provide a parallel between the term “Gold Star Lesbian” with the inspired term “Gold Star Asexual,” and the ways in which the asexual identity is being gatekept by this unattainable ideal. Could you expand on these qualifications and how in your words the “Gold Star Asexual” is a “fantasy and a false promise” (p.99)?

There’s still so much questioning about whether asexuality is valid. Doubters really want to explain asexuality away by saying that someone isn’t asexual, they’re just shy, or haven’t found the right person, or maybe it’s because of childhood trauma, or repression, or whatnot. Basically every ace person that I know has questioned whether they’re “really” ace, which can be exhausting and drain energy that could be better used elsewhere. 

Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s good to ask questions and explore and of course there’s nothing wrong with deciding that you’re not ace. But it’s telling that people really want aces to question until they discover they’re allo, whereas allos are not really encouraged to question whether they’re ace. It’s a double standard, because it’s okay to be allo but many people think it’s not okay to be ace. Instead of exploration being a valuable and good thing that you do to understand yourself, aces feel like we have to keep questioning ourselves because we might be deluded. 

Allos aren’t the only people who gatekeep either. Because aces are doubted by others, which is painful, it can be tempting to become gatekeepers ourselves. Especially in the early years of the community, there was talk about how people couldn’t be truly ace if they were disabled or if they were victims of sexual trauma, because that would “delegitimize” asexuality.

To my mind, that view is wrong. Very few people are gold-star aces, and we shouldn’t focus on that anyway. The purpose of the ace community is to be accepting and inclusive and help people find each other and share resources. Playing into ace respectability politics will make us turn on each other and exclude those who must be included and it doesn’t help us help each other and organize to change society. The way I see it, you can be ace for whatever reason and that’s fine, and it’s also fine if later you decide you’re not ace. (In general, I think it’s good to think of sexualities as fluid.) I think it’s important that aces fight compulsory sexuality and make it clear that you can have a happy life if you’re asexual, no matter why you’re asexual or for how long—and none of that relies on someone being a gold-star ace. 

Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex is one the first asexual non-fiction books to be published by a “mainstream” publisher. Was there a lot of pressure riding on this book? What challenges did you experience in trying to publish it?

I think a lot of publishers thought that the book would be too niche—essentially, that because the ace population isn’t huge, there wouldn’t be a big audience for the book and it wouldn’t sell. Others thought that maybe it’d be too academic. I disagree with both assumptions. The book is a bit academic, but it’s also reported and has a lot of stories of people’s lives. And even if the ace population isn’t huge, it’s still valuable to have this book exist. Not to mention that, as I keep saying, the ace lens is valuable for allos too. 

I did feel like there was a lot of pressure riding on it, though I felt that from myself, rather than from my publisher. There’s such a void of ace representation and discussion in mainstream nonfiction books, which means that any new book on the topic is going to be expected to do so much and capture every sub-experience, even though that’s never possible for any book. I tried hard to make the book diverse in a lot of ways and cover topics like race, disability, and gender, as well as different types of ace and aro experience. But of course no book could cover all of ace experience. I said that right at the beginning, in the authors’ note. I tried to say what my limitations were, because I think that’s far more honest than not showing the limitations and pretending one book is representative. It’s not. There is so much more to say. There needs to be a rich ace canon. 

Considering one book can’t cover everything about asexuality, are their subjects you wish you to expand upon? Would you be open to writing a follow-up to Ace?

At least right now, I don’t think I’ll be writing a follow-up to Ace. I’m primarily a science and technology journalist and think my work in the immediate future will go back to focusing on that. But there are so many other subjects that I wish other aces would write books about. There should be books just about sex-repulsed aces, and books focusing only on aros, books about aroallos (who often get overlooked), more books about demisexuality and queerplatonic relationships. I feel like every chapter of my book could have been its own book! Plus, there definitely need to be books about aces outside of the Western world—there’s so much to say about the aspec experience and many who are more qualified than I to write about these experiences. 

While much of the book discusses the challenges and prejudices facing the asexual community, you also highlight some of the positive elements about this identity. Could you talk about that here?


Absolutely. Being ace can give you such a rich and valuable perspective on the world. Sometimes, it can feel like a superpower, like it makes you see things that other people don’t, like it makes you more perceptive. It can make you question so much about relationships (of all kinds) and sexuality that people take for granted. I think that, often, it can help you have richer and closer and more intimate relationships. Ace are some of the most emotionally and socially intelligent people I know. Like many other experiences that deviate from the norm, it makes you see the norm for what it is—and then it can bring more freedom by having you question it. 

What asexual resources/pop culture references would you recommend for the readers of Geeks OUT?

In terms of general ace resources, I would recommend Julie Sondra Decker’s book The Invisible Orientation, as well as The Asexual Agenda, which is a wonderful group blog. 


To be honest, I have never been the best at pop culture references—there’s a reason I’m primarily a science and tech journalist! (And writing the pop culture parts of the book was difficult for me.) There’s a lot of wonderful ace YA out there, which I think is super important. Alice Oseman’s Loveless comes to mind, for example, as does Claire Kann’s Let’s Talk About Love. This Goodreads list might be useful too

And finally, are there any projects you are currently working on or project ideas you are currently developing and are at liberty to speak about?

Not right now! Still trying to recover from 2020.


You can follow Angela Chen on Twitter @chengla

Interview With Yasmin Benoit

An alternative fashion model of Caribbean descent (Trinidadian, Jamaican, and Barbadian descent) Yasmin Benoit is a proud Black Aro-Ace model/activist from the UK. Creator of #ThisIsWhatAsexualLooksLike Benoit revels in breaking stereotypes about what asexuals/aromantics are perceived and look like. I had the pleasure of interviewing her, which you can read below.

How did you get into modeling? What made you decide to stay on this path and how did you come to incorporate your identity as an asexual aromantic person with it?

I just started reaching out to local photographers, building a portfolio, and then I started getting the attention of brands who wanted models with my look. I try to use my work to increase representation for alternative people of colour, that was why I was motivated to do it in the first place, and break down the misconceptions about how black people in particular are supposed to dress. I stay on that path because I’m pretty good at it, I get to be creative, work with cool people, get free clothes and use it to amplify the other messages I want to put out there – like raising awareness for asexuality and aromanticism. That’s how I incorporate it. Now that I’m out, my modelling work inevitably connects to my modelling too and helps to dispel misconceptions about being aspec.

Because of your identity, you stand at both the fronts of hypersexualization as a model of color and desexualization as an asexual person. Do you ever experience these contrasting forces, and if so, how do you resolve that tension?

They can be amusingly contrasting sometimes, like completely contradicting. It’s fine for me, I’m just doing my thing and expressing myself how I want to, but it’s pretty funny when I’ve got some people calling me a “slut” and a “whore” and others calling me a “virgin loser” at the same time. It’s other people who can’t decide which stereotype they want to go for and both can’t exist at once.

David Jay, American Asexual activist and creator of AVEN, is often held up as the “Model Asexual” for his visibility and non-threatening position as a white, cisgender, able-bodied, neurotypical man? Why do you think that is and how can we change this to broaden people’s understanding of what it means to be asexual?

Within the community, I think he’s mainly known for having founded one of our biggest asexuality organisations and most popular forums. I don’t know how many relate to his experiences as a white, cisgender, able-bodied, neurotypical man but he’s palatable and inoffensive, which is always helpful. I think that for those outside of the community, his ‘normality’ was part of the appeal. They made the point of being like, “Look at this guy, can you believe he’s asexual?” but that was a different time. There’s a lot more activists out there now so we aren’t only represented by David Jay. Sure, most of the activists are white, our representation is predominantly white and the community does tend to find them easier to process, but I’ve had a lot of support and I’m pretty much the opposite of David Jay in terms of our demographic.

There are those who might say that Aro-Aces do not belong in the LGBTQ+ community. What would you say to this?

I’d say that I don’t really care because we’re already there and it isn’t a point of debate. It doesn’t make a difference if Jane from Nebraska thinks we aren’t part of the community, that shouldn’t impact what we can and can’t do. A large amount of my work is within the LGBTQ+ community, I’ve never encountered real-life exclusion from anyone in the community and I’ve felt like part of the community since I saw my first asexual flag at a pride festival when I was fourteen. That’s the first place where I met other asexual people and I felt embraced by the queer community quickly. It’s a shame that assholes on the internet make aro-ace people feel like they can’t have that experience, because we really can. We are queer.

What resources/ pop culture references would you recommend for the asexual/aromantic readers of Geeks OUT?

There’s quite a few books out there with aro-ace characters or covering that topic. Let’s Talk About Love by Claire Kann, Loveless by Alice Oseman, I’ve heard that Beneath the Citadel by Destiny Soria, Beyond the Black Door by A.M. Strickland, Sawkill Girls by Claire Legrand, Last 8 by Laura Pohl and Scavenge the Stars by Tara Sim have characters on that spectrum somewhere. Also, Ace by Angela Chen is a non-fiction example that I actually wrote a piece for. As a writer, I come out with new articles on asexuality and aromanticism quite regularly. I have the #ThisIsWhatAsexualLooksLike series that I write for Qwear Fashion and I hope to realise a book someday. There’s also Todd from Bojack Horseman, he’s ace.

What changes do you personally want to see within the mainstream visibility of the LGBTQ+ community?

I’d like to see a more diverse representation, not just in terms of casting, but in terms of the kind of stories that are focused on. I’d like to see more asexual and aromantic representation, more intersex representation, just more than just the usual stuff and the same old narratives and love stories. We’ve got enough LGBTQ+ representation that we’re starting to have cliches. The media needs to be more adventurous and represent what the world actually needs to see.

Lastly, what advice would you give to other asexual/aromantics out there?

Just do you. As far as we know, you’ve only got one life, so don’t waste it trying to be someone you’re not or trying to impress people who don’t deserve it.